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Many cars have had default camber and toe settings changed, while the majority of FR & MR are now 0.5/1.5 camber and 0.00/0.60 toe, some cars have a more aggressive default set up like 1.5/3.5 camber and -0.50/1.00 toe.

I will test a few of these old default vs new default.

Starting with the BMW VGT

This car has a PD/BMW factory tune on it, and while most cars Ive checked with PD/Factory set ups have had no changes to default settings, the toe on the BMW VGT has changed. Previously -0.30/0.40 and this was a very good set up.

Unfortunately unlike all the other cars I've tested I didn't run hot laps at Silverstone with the BMW VGT just prior to updating to 1.09. I lucked out doing a series of hot laps at Silverstone GP the day before 1.09 saving best lap replays, that came in handy testing the post 1.09 dynamics.

So I will have to run both old and new default toe on 1.09 comparing them only with the new physics. I had run the BMW VGT quite a bit in 1.08 so I am still very familiar with its handling pre 1.09.

BMW VGT I will test other cars with aggressive default angles also.

Well before 1.09 the new set up (-0.50/1.00) would of caused snap oversteer if correcting throttle oversteer on exit similar to if we had a shit suspension and open diff. I mentioned earlier its a common real world scenario with Fox Body Mustangs, but Mustangs until recent have shared this characteristic even if Fox Body's were the most prone to it (relatively high COG among other things) These setting shouldn't turn every FR car into a Economy Fox Body Mustang, they had ancient rear suspensions and open diffs, when we tune simulated fully independent tuned suspensions with Limited slip differentials.

Snap oversteer is dangerous especially if you get scared & fully let off when it occurs, as seen here

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He is power oversteering to the right, and eases off the throttle as he steers left to counter, weight shift off the rear back to the front SNAP oversteer, he gets scared and fully lets off the throttle and even worse hit's the brake, more weight shifted back to the front and the rear got light his rear end kept rotating.

He should of pushed a bit harder on the throttle to get weight back on the rear and steered his way out of it keeping on throttle. Sounds crazy but it would of worked. He sealed his fate getting off the throttle and hitting the brakes. Its something you see when there is no independent rear suspension running open diffs with soft springs or weak roll bars.

So while yes snap oversteer when correcting throttle oversteer is a real world phenomenon. It was seriously overdone before 1.09 and far too present in cars it shouldn't be quite nearly as much.

Enter 1.09 world and we get more true to life reactions from our adjustment. The new setting now performing as I would expect them and want them to. Stabilizing the rear end while increasing response in the front, together allow rotation while still stabilizing cornering. Its tighter through the corner and holds on more at exit less likely to throttle oversteer, but if you do, counter steering using the throttle to rotate (as you would IRL) will not cause sudden snap oversteer anymore.

This makes the car more stable and easier to drive, but requires more steering angle to rotate and the extra stability come at the cost of tire life and lap times.

Running the old 1.08 settings the car was less stable, but faster with good throttle control, the extra speed comes with added difficulty of driving, poor throttle control will lead to throttle oversteer, and it can be easily sorted by counter steering out of trouble, but that 1 mistake of giving a little too much throttle cost time on the lap even if you don't spin off into a wall.

So what's the better choice here?

IMO The new settings (-0.50/1.00) will be better for the masses with an easy car to drive, while more skilled drivers will tune the angle closer to the old (-0.30/0.40) with faster laps as a result.

Next Up for Testing

Audi R8 LMS ultra '12

This is one of the cars that had a large change in both camber and toe settings. Before 1.09 it was running 3.0/1.0 degrees negative camber with -0.30/0.40 toe settings. In 1.09 that's changed to 1.5/3.5 degrees negative camber with -0.50/1.00 toe settings.

My testing so far has shown aggressive toe angles are not causing sudden snap oversteer anymore, they are stabilizing the rear while the added angle in the front increases response and allows rotation with higher steering angle. All good stuff.

I've not yet been face to face with camber that is now reversed from post 1.09 aside from the YB, however I've only run pre and post 1.09 laps with a tuned suspension, adjusting settings and testing stock suspensions I'm only starting to touch in my testing.

Testing 1.08 settings, the rear was too lose and the front to tight. Way too much inside front grab going into corners with the tail not as stable I had to steady the car with the steering wheel. On exit throttle oversteer if I throttle through and oversteer if too much steering angle at apex, not enough steering response requiring a lot of steering corrections.

Then Running 1.09 settings, I had too much steering response not enough steering grip, the tail end was contained, but as the car would understeer into a corner getting neutral at apex would cause lift oversteer and then understeer when back on throttle at the exit..


I liked better the front end of 1.08 but the rear end of 1.09 and thought they may work well together.

The front has more grip but is less touchy, the rear tightly contained, but rotates on command with the throttle, I did find myself using the throttle a bit to much to get that last bit of needed rotation and often had to power hard through the throttle oversteer steering into it to straighten out.

I was still running on par with my fastest laps right away, but not making any significant gains to lap times even though the car felt much better, and shows no sine of quirks powering through throttle oversteer while counter steering.

Thinking my rear end may be a little over contained I lowered the rear camber to -2.5

Knocked 0.5 off my best lap time on the second lap. The car felt better, but not quite there.

Yes I realize I'm obviously skipping a bunch of settings but, finding both sets to not work as well as default 1.08 on 1.08 Id like to find what does work..

The rear end still feels too contained I'm going to run further test trying 0.60 rear toe with 1.0/2.5 and 3.5 on the rear.

It may be that they did a blanket adjustment based on a few parameters like drivetrains and weight balance. For the rear end 0.60 may have been the goal, but it was added with the previous default amount (in this case 0.40 to arrive at 1.00) and the same with camber, GT3 type cars I think default ranged between 1.0 to 2.0 in the rear, blanketing all of them with the same settings going to 3.5 adds 1.5 to the 2.0 and that 1.5 degrees coincides with the FR/MR cars. The front seems different, possible the reverse was done.

It just initially feels (at lest with this particular car) the default set up is off for a default set up. Possibly the application of the wheel angle default setting changes to go with the new physics are a little bit off? Maybe a hot fix, or future update will answer this.

Before doing more testing with the R8. I Buy a new BTR for Testing Starting from scratch with new default settings.

The car still drives like crap, I kept all default but returned camber to 0.0/0.0 still crap, but new defaults just as bad if not worse.

I then left wheel angles default and attempted to tune in handling with the rest of the suspension, but it ended up going nowhere, the car was possessed.

I grabbed the suspension set up off the YB (tuned on 1.08 ) and instantly the car comes to life and right away I'm carving corners chopping time of my laps as they fly by...

I think I need to test if ABS + Camber is still causing a double dose of understeer into corners as it was before 1.09. I still find 0.0/0.0 just as shit as before 1.09 but the use of ABS 1 + 0.0/0.0 camber was negating each others negative effects. It seemed the lower grip of 0.0/0.0 was being grip boosted by ABS trail braking into a corner, where if you turned ABS off, 0.0/0.0 lost most of its stability trail braking.

For the rest of the night though I'll be running some VGT laps at RB Ring. I've spent so much time physics testing since 1.09 I've not yet taken the time to enjoy the new track in its 2 layouts.

I couldn't help myself and though it might be good to provide a car that I tuned before 1.09 and I have 2 good examples. The Devil-Z taking her to Silverstone I right away notice I went with low toe angles, remembering the car had snap oversteer quirks with aggressive toe angles. I ran a few laps and she indeed was less stable than before 1.09, so I went a little more aggressive adjusting my toe angles to -0.20/0.55 to start. While I will spend some time refining the toe angles Im more stable again as she was in 1.08. So I can see how on some cars where there was elevated snap oversteer quirks with aggressive toe angle pre 1.09, I now have the room to takes those angles a bit further, but more benefits to consistency as apposed to faster laps, lap times are still too close to call out gains.

I also have a Real World Replica Tune of a DC4 Integra Type-R that's been published on a couple boards. It was epic before 1.09 (Tuned on 1.06/1.07) and its still epic on 1.09, not a thing on it I would change, not even the toe angles. Everything is spot on and mirrors how the car is set up IRL.

I will publish that set up here so others can test Camber Tuned cars tuned before 1.09 running the same set up on 1.09 carving corners

Im refining the gears on the ITR before release, I want the gears updated.

Skipping through new cars to test I landed on my BMW 135i set up running the Eibach Pro-Kit specs and a uber tight diff. Taking her out for some laps around Silverstone almost instantly it became apparent my diff was massively too tight, and just to get the rear in check for clean laps I had to reset the diff settings (WTF? AYC whats that doing there even if greyed out?) Anyways, my diff issues seem to be coming from a new rear inside outside tire grip relationship.

Im finding some of my cars are benefiting from reworking rear end downforce, differential and toe-in settings to work better with the new found ,rear end composure. Nothing on the front ends I found in need of check after DF, Diff and toe are reworked on the backside.

I don't know where GTP gets their info on tuning, but they are crazy. Its now being said that Toe-out on FR cars is used on the rear to stabalize the car down the straights....

What?!?!?!?!?

Yeah they justify this with an interesting explanation

" put your toes in and bend upfront, then do the same with your toes out, what's more stable? toe-out obviously."

Then the guy who wrote The GTP Tuning Guide adds

DolHaus
" Rear toe out will stabilise the car in a straight line"

Really? This guy wrote the GTP GT6 Tuning Guide??? He couldn't guide his way out of a Barn with a Mag Light.

NO no no no no no no

Look at this lil picture I made and see if you need anything other than common sense (least common of all senses) to figure out what toe out in the rear will do to your straight line stability...

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Easy to see, TOE-IN on the rear will stabilize the car going straight, toe-out will destabilize the rear. Toe out on the rear the tail end will wander as the rear wheels try to pull away from each other.

Toe out is DANGEROUS on RWD as getting on throttle whatever tire grabs first/more is what way the rear is going lol.

A very small amount of Toe out can be used on FWD cars to help rotate, but mostly for tracks that don't go much over around 80mph, going faster the tail wonders and straight line stability suffers. You will see it used on Auto-Cross set ups as speeds in Auto-Cross are not high speed and mostly consist of tight corners.

Just a demo

1.06 Tuned ITR Running on 1.09

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When you have Vettel behind the wheel it looks easy. lol JK