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Yup you by far have been the most understanding and show applied theory in your testing. Well done. Others may be taking it in just a well, but your posting applied understanding at the deepest level I've seen yet and it a pleasure chatting with you. If I drag out explanations its going to often be so others can follow along and pick up as much as possible.

I don't understand why many take such a linear approach to tuning cars, unwilling to understand everything works together the settings are not all independent of each other.

More importantly why people are so confused between grip and handling. OR why some are seriously confusing the feeling of adding grip and removing grip.

We Tune for the best Handling so at times to achieve a balance car around the track we use the various settings to add and remove grip in various conditions.

Example

Some stiffen up the suspension thinking this is adding grip giving them more rotation.... That's incorrect.

More grip doesn't give more rotation. It does the opposite. To get more rotation while adding grip OR removing it (Yes that's what's being done when stiffening the suspension, you stiffen one end and increase the balance of mechanical grip to the other side by reducing it on the side being stiffened) we need to offset the balance of the grip changes to allow rotation.

Offsetting the balance either way (adding or removing) to give more grip to the front vs the rear helps rotation, too much oversteer, too little understeer... The goal get them as equal as possible around the track, not a steady state circle.

When stiffening the suspension there is the method of using stiffer rear settings in relation to the front (relative to the adjustable amount) as mentioned stiffening the suspensions is basically lowering total mechanical grip, but we do this in a offset balance that shift the grip balance to the front vs the rear. This is because the softer front will have more grip than the stiffer rear, this helps rotation.


Now an example of adding grip to help rotation can be done higher downforce setting in the front (relative to adjustable range as all tuning elements are in GT series) vs the rear will give more of the increase of grip to the front than the rear. This helps rotation. We have to keep in mind downforce tuning is done more for high speed corners where its affects are greatest vs low speed corners where mechanical grip is more at work.

This is probably why they confuse how camber works. Simply adding camber to both ends increases overall grip relatively equally and so the car understeers. It needs to be applied in a way that balances the grip increase in order to increase rotation.

Applied to camber we give most often a higher front setting than the rear so as we increase grip with camber we offset the balance of the grip increase to the front because this will help rotation, instead of the grip increase causing understeer...... Simply adding camber to only one side, that side will be less willing to rotate, more willing to hold on though most often both cases create understeer, only when the balance is correctly tuned in can you get the desired effects on rotation.

Balance is key with everything, there is nothing linear most adjustments effect the balance of other adjustments, so we use the settings for their intended purposes so that tuning makes sense. Often those who think things are broken they simply are not balancing the settings correctly and so adjustments don't have predictable effects, or work in realistically predictable ways.

Thanks for the Props!

My only problem is, how i transport my "know how" in GT6. This Setup is the result, from the advise you gave me about the Springrates. That the setting means in percent, whatever the Numbers showed up. Same with the LSD, i don´t know how PD it means. The only what i fiind out, the the preload in GT6 really preload is, not like in GT5.

I think the whole issue why so many people to do it wrong is, that they don´t use the knowing in relation with generall Physics. While Cornering the mass inertia and G-force has at Front/Rear the same effect, but the initial point are not the same on each axle. The Camber at the Rear works again the the static side moving, not the oversteering, hold both tyres on the helps a lot. But at the Front u have no static moving, because the Tyres stays only straight. But the biggest mistake that all the guys do is, to handle the force that a good rear setting produced to the front, instead to use this force against the mass interia and G-force that works the whole cornering time to the Front.

Example

""""""
Dolhaus
:I think I've come to a conclusion regarding camber:

It works perfectly for changing the balance of a car, using camber you can make a car feel more balanced and completely change the way it responds to inputs. No other tuning option has such a pronounced effect on the feeling of a car and changing the way the front and rear wheels behave.
Unfortunately, this comes with a guaranteed grip reduction. No matter how great a car feels to drive, it will not be able to sustain the same cornering speed as a car set to 0.0 and therefore will be slower. There is no grip improvement to be had using camber, alterations in grip levels between front and rear wheels during various phases of cornering are completely possible but the total potential grip level will always be lower than at 0.0""""

This is a prime example of somebody confused. The comment contradicts itself.

On one hand they say

" It works perfectly for changing the balance of a car, using camber you can make a car feel more balanced and completely change the way it responds to inputs. No other tuning option has such a pronounced effect on the feeling of a car and changing the way the front and rear wheels behave."

This is more or less correct, BUT then they say

" Unfortunately, this comes with a guaranteed grip reduction. No matter how great a car feels to drive, it will not be able to sustain the same cornering speed as a car set to 0.0 and therefore will be slower. "

How can camber have "the most profound effect on on a car changing the way the front and rear wheels behave" also come with guaranteed grip loss, and guaranteed slower?

That is quite frankly a stupid way of interpreting results.

If there is a profound effect on handling it should be easily clear that if you can manipulate that effect like a good tuner should then a good tuner will be faster with camber and only a shit tuner wont.

The second half of the comment is basically a cope out. They are trying to now accept that camber has a profound effect on handling, but the second half shows they don't want to accept they have been incorrect in all the half assed testing they have done saying cambers reduces grip.

This guy is one of the many who think the feeling of grip loss is adding grip, and vise versa.

I say if you can't tell the difference between grip loss and adding grip then you have much to learn and should do more mouth closed ears open and less posting of "conclusions" that are ass backwards.......

Then it gets funny as you see who "likes" the comment, The growing list is all people claiming cambers broken and reduces grip, sorry now its "camber has a profound effect on handling but reduces grip" ahahahaaha, they have little to no ability to Man-Up.........

Ive never seen so many seemingly smart people so collectively stupid in one thread

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Its clear that nobody is blinder then these idiots Refusing to see.....

I went over to GTP saw a tune posted there for the 97T boasting 1:40 lap times at Silverstone GP with TCS-1 & ABS-1, so with the Bone Stock 97T I hit the Track TCS-0 & ABS-0 and lap 3 I'm running 1:38. GTP Tuners SUUUUUUUCK at tuning cars lmfao, I'm faster in a default setting car with no assist and a butt load less downforce.... lol They kill grip removing the camber and try to make up for it with massive downforce, but its not a good trade as the downforce grip comes with extra drag & the Camber doesn't lol...

Cars are most often faster with default setting then with bullshit GTP Tuning...

Rember if they say Camber removes grip and post 0.0/0.0 camber settings, skip that Tuner, they suck and are clueless.

Anybody who thinks different is welcome to prove it, but as always, it won't happen, as nobody saying camber is broken knows what they are talking about, let alone have the capacity to prove it one way or the other lmfao, I laugh at all the "tested it to death" they have done but still lack the capacity to show anything at all, nothing, zip, zilch, Nada.....

Got an oil change, went back and put down consistent 1:36 laps still running all default setting only brake balance adjusted, and as always zero assist.

If the tuner is using any assist when tuning, the tune relies on assist, and IMO that is just poor tuning.

Interesting Tire slip angles Im confident are simulated, maybe not visually but in the production of grip I am certain. Very well done it works very close to real life, where some slip angle is better than none but only up to a limit where no more grip is gained the tire starts loosing grip.

I say not visually because slip angles require tire flex to produce the additional grip, and visually I cant make out tire flex with certainty, but at times there does appear to be some.

Arriving at a equal slip angle front and rear is when the car will drive as if there are no slip angles, neutral, equal grip front to rear, balanced.

I've been running an NSX Type-R with aggressive wheel angles pushing the limit and riding under the fall off point to great success. The car is remarkable at 550pp able to hold pace with cars running 25 to 50pp more with high downforce vs no wing on the NSX. Its no surprise the NSX is an overachiever for whatever pp level its tuned to, but I'm talking seriously holding TT pace while I'm driving with cars that on paper eat it for breakfast, and effortlessly.

I challenge anybody saying Camber is broken and or only reduces grip to produce a Replay file of a 550pp on Sports Soft NSX on a 2min + lap Track running Zero Camber. Ill show you a 550pp NSX making more grip with aggressive wheel angles running lots of Camber.

Ill let you guys in on a secrete, low grip tires remove definition of adjustments, higher grip tires are more reactive to adjustments. This means good or bad settings are more pronounced with higher grip tires, poor tuning is more evident on higher grip tires as the grip exposes the flaws, where low grip tires mask flaws in limited levels of grip.

This means well tuned suspensions with high grip tires will have pronounced improvements, and poor tuning with high grip tires emit character flaws in it handling characteristic. Where as with low grip tires even well tuned suspensions will not profoundly perform greater as well as poorly tuned suspensions flaws become less apparent.

So beware of tuners who only tune on Comfort Tires or Sports Hard tires, most often they are only using low grip tires because when they raise tire grip levels all the poor tuning they have done becomes evident, they stay on low grip tires for the area of gray and will always say something like "its Driver Style" if confronted with tuning flaws... This is especially the FITT tuning competitions most often low PP and low grip tires basically destroy any real tuning competition they spend days organizing.

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Still shot of the Lateral G's pulled by an F40 on Sport Soft Tires running Silverstone GP. I see approximately 1.5 G's, this is a decent amount of sustained G's with a car running a total (front + rear) of 8 degrees Negative Camber.

F40 550pp Sport Soft Tires
All Assist Turned Off

Silverstone GP 2:09.XXX

That is by no means a blistering fast lap time, but its certain to be out of reach of many claiming Cambers Broken.....

Monza 1:53.XXX

Again, not blistering quick, but faster then most claiming Cambers Broken.

If all the Cambers broken, Camber reduces grip theories were correct then the picture you see would be impossible. How on earth could the F40 at 550pp on SS Tires sustain such high cornering G's if the grip level on both front and rear tires is greatly reduced? According to the (bogus) theories, even camber as low as -0.5 will show reductions in grip and apparently always end up with a slower lap time than if I were to be driving the same settings but Camber set to 0.0.

However for some strange reason when I post faster laps while running Camber, they justify my time saying I've reduced grip to compliment my driving style, and all I show when posting laps faster with camber is my Driving style. They are contradicting their own theory, basically changing it to suit their position.

What is it? Does camber on a car guarantee slower laps because of reduced grip or not? It cannot guarantee a slower lap if it is also allowing me to run faster laps because of my driving style.

So if slower than a Zero camber tune, its because of reduced grip slowing me down & if faster its because the reduced grip is allowing me to go faster?

How about remove the Camber from the 97T leave everything else default and go beat the fastest time for the Senna Events (fastest time recorded). We know every time posted in the event is running default camber, so it should be easy to beat those times removing camber if it does indeed increase grip doing so. NOPE, not gonna happen, no integrity at GTP....

I've beat a handful of Zero camber lap times (every one presented to me as proving broken camber) while running a Butt Load of Camber yet they still will always say "cambers broken, because removing camber from any car with any tune will be faster" these idiots must be retarded, because I've beaten all of the Zero Camber laps presented as such and I'm only a decent driver. They may act like that isn't so, simply because mods at GTP delete the post containing the replay files.... Does that mean they don't exist? Does that mean the laps never occurred? NO, just because it disproves the retarded ass backwards GTP camber theories and justifications showing that the reality here is GTP don't want to accept the truth.

I've got all the replay files saved on my PC, so anytime mofo's, any fucking time.... Easy to see I got the Balls to bring the controversy to the face of GTP while not one fucking GTP punk bitch has enough stones to talk shit outside of GTP protection. Where you Homos at???? Nothing to say outside GTP Mod protection? Meet me at any board any time or simply remain pussies. Pussies that smell like fish.

Pussies like that need a Douche.

I havnt held back any punches because I KNOW some GTP (Gran Turismo Pussies) Zero Camber Punks have been in this thread and read my post digging at them..... Yet silently they run back to GTP tails tucked tightly between the legs...

Now if your from GTP, and not familiar with the Camber Broken Beef or dont align automatically with GTP consensus, this is not applying to you. Every Punk ass Bitch Im talking about knows who they are, if your clueless or confused its not directed at you...

So, Bring It, Man the Fuck Up, talk is cheap. Fucking Google Tuners don't have shit to say to me, I will slap them with their stupidity.

I grabbed a few cars (last few I worked on in 1.0 To test the changes to camber. After a 20 lap session in the NSX and 5 laps in the F40 Ive not improved either times. My cars are not handling differently due to the camber fix. The tail on the F40 is a little more reluctant to keep rotating after steering angle is reduced, but that I chalk up to the other aspect of the fix dealing with rear heavy cars.

Im hoping that Zero Camber settings start hurting performance when positive dynamic camber shows its face. Previously the wheels catching pos camber was not hurting grip as much as it should have.

I have no cars tuned with 0.0 camber, the true test will be if the zero camber settings start slowing people down.

I've not gained any further grip with my cars already tuned with Camber, and the update hasn't messed up the handling at all, with the exception of my rear heavy F40 keeping the rear in check a bit more but that I believe is due to other aspects of the update. My NSX doesn't drive or feel any different.

So I have to wait for zero camber users to complain about their cars getting slower post update, possibly some members getting back to 1.08 laps by adding camber would be nice to see. I'm actually glad that my cars don't need a major retune as they did in the first couple updates.